Curse

NerfHerder · Jan 21, 2011, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

clarify "invincibuild"

Anything that can produce SC times like these. I understand the teams that made those times used tactics, cons, and had some skill. But the fact that one skill makes all this possible should raise a few heads. Not to mention some of those SC are performed entirely with SF sins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

better yet, post an example of a build that is truly invincible in every single area of the game on its own.

Spirit Spammer

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

and that, my friend, is playing the game, knowing your enemy, and picking a synergistic skill-set to trump the area.

How to "play the game" is the most subjective part of the arguement. I would be alot happier if the synergistic skill set didnt always revolve around a SF gimmick. Instead, teams should have to use balanced builds. I am all for skill balance across the board, no exceptions. Either all professions get an SF skill or nobody does. I'm not picking on you specifically, coil. Its just your post was easiest to respond to and hit ponts others had mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I would say /signed , not because it's too OP , but because less OP builds got nerfed in the past , places like UW got much harder for non sc teams ( whereas SF are still able to finish it easily..), almost every dungeon can be run by a SF, etc.

^This is actually part of my reasoning for creating the post. I would have made the title Nerf SF, only it wouldnt be fair to attack one skill with out discussing these types of builds in general. If 600 and OF were nerfed why didnt SF? UW is a perfect example of anti-SC measures gone wrong. It can still be SC'd, but it became much harder for a balanced team to go there. If something is going to get nerfed they should be consistant with the nerfs.

I enjoy builds like SF, 600, etc. And I'm not going to lie about the fact that I will exploit a gimmick for as long as it lasts as well. But I dont have my head so far up my backside to say its not imbalanced.

Yes, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, but it always crept into other threads not pertaining to the original topic. That's why I made this thread. So it can be discussed with out going way off topic.

Way off topic

, I mostly PvE mixed with casual PvP. When I heard way back that the TK consisted of mosltly PvP players it concerned me. But judging by the responses of some PvP'rs here, I realize that wasnt a bad decision. PvP'rs understand, more than PvE'rs, the importance of balance across the board.

Gabriel of Ravn · Jan 21, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I enjoy builds like SF, 600, etc. And I'm not going to lie about the fact that I will exploit a gimmick for as long as it lasts as well. But I dont have my head so far up my backside to say its not imbalanced.

This is what most people can't do. I use SF alot but I can clearly see it's imbalanced and I get quite tired of 1,2,3,4 etc run to this spot weeee pew pew mob dead. But if there was a change to Shadow Form to make it almost like Vow of Silence for example half the game would QQ saying sins are useless because they've become so use to using sins pretty much in just 1 way with a few variations in skills. 600 I don't have much to say on because I never truly used it.

Tender Care · Jan 21, 2011, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I explain all this chaos: Nerfherder got a dervish and doesn0t know how to farm with it...lol

/OT

Invincibuilds do not exist

there are just some skills combinations that makes u immune to dmg and effects ONLY IF USED IN THE PROPER WAY....Like farming with a terra tank, if u don't cast enchants at the proper time u will die very quickly!

mage767 · Jan 21, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

No idea how long you've been playing, or how much you know of past farming builds, but WARRIORS were the first and the best at farming smites in UW. They still are btw. Warriors dominated the farming scene for years, because they are very, very strong. And warriors are still the foundation of FoW clears, so saying you're useless in every elite area is a whole load of bullcrap all together. There are plenty of manlyway builds for dungeons, DoA (manlyway DoA used to hold the record for quite a while) etc etc.

If you can't see how this game actually works, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. Warriors are NOT the foundation of FOW clears, never was, never is, and never will be. The main tank is always a SF sin, T1 and T2 are also sins. Only the damage dealers are 100b warriors combined with synergy from Mop necro and EoE R/Rt. That's the classic FOWsc run by most pugs these days. Even the warriors can be replaced by A/W as damage dealers.

Speed clear guilds have already transitioned to better ways of doing damage in FOWsc. These new team builds (not run by pugs) usually consists of mesmers as the primary souce of damage. It is a mesmer spike and not a 100b spike, so there are ZERO warriors in the team. In fact, this FOWsc completion style is similar to UBway (which is used to complete UWSC). In this newer FOWsc, there are 3 primary sins: T1, T2 and T3. This shows that newer build are abusing the SF elite even moreso, and the new completion times without personal cons are easily under 20min, which is a significant improvement over manly FOWsc.

The bottom line is that SF is the CORE ELITE for tanking purposes and no profession does it better than sins, thanks to "Shroud of Distress". Rangers/Monks/Eles can also function as main tanks using conset and personal cons, but hardly anbody uses them, and even if they do, SF is STILL the damn elite being used.

As far as damage is concerned, mes spike is possibly the fastest there is at the moment. The best speed clear records are mesmer-damage based, whether it is FOW, UW, Urgoz, etc. Why? Because armor ignoring damage on a balled group (by a SF tank) is the most efficient tactic there is in this stupid game.

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Jan 21, 2011, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I got plenty of examples to disprove your point. The damage by SF has been done, as shown (for r9 weapons):
1. Emmy blades used to cost 130e are now 30e (this is the worst case scenario)
2. Obsidian edges used to cost 100e+ are now under 70e.
3. Silverwings used to cost 250e+, but now just under 150e.
4. BDS staffs dropped in prices significantly for all professions. Prot ones used to go 500e+, now just over 200e.
5. Miniature Dhuum (from UWSC) dropped from 600e to 250e.

I could go on and on with the examples how mass dungeon/elite clears using SF as the core build for a) tanking, b) skipping most of the dungeon, c) killing enemies using earth/mes builds....ruined the prices of hard to farm skins.

These prices all changed long after SF was already "nerfed." None of them had anything to do with the prevalence of speed clears, which saw no serious change in the time period you're describing. Virtually all prices of rare, hard to farm skins fell because the HoM calculator update changed players' perceptions of economic value. Now ANYTHING that can't go in the hall is worth less, and almost EVERYTHING that can is worth more. The only exception would be extremely rare mini-pets, which have in fact dropped in price...but only because a green mini, for HoM purposes, is a green mini, and the Black Moa chick sets the baseline for that one.

Claiming that SF farming is responsible for price changes that occurred months after the last skill change (a nerf, no less, in the opinion of most players) seems sort of disingenuous.

*lemming* · Jan 21, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

That's probably because the Shadow Form "nerf" did just about nothing to impair its functionality.

Gabriel of Ravn · Jan 21, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Rogrs Nelson

These prices all changed long after SF was already "nerfed." None of them had anything to do with the prevalence of speed clears, which saw no serious change in the time period you're describing. Virtually all prices of rare, hard to farm skins fell because the HoM calculator update changed players' perceptions of economic value. Now ANYTHING that can't go in the hall is worth less, and almost EVERYTHING that can is worth more. The only exception would be extremely rare mini-pets, which have in fact dropped in price...but only because a green mini, for HoM purposes, is a green mini, and the Black Moa chick sets the baseline for that one.

Claiming that SF farming is responsible for price changes that occurred months after the last skill change (a nerf, no less, in the opinion of most players) seems sort of disingenuous.

Those prices fell before the HoM calculator even came out. Yes they decreased a while after the "nerf" but not anywhere near the time frame you claim.

Tender Care · Jan 21, 2011, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

That's probably because the Shadow Form "nerf" did just about nothing to impair its functionality.

*_________________________________________________ *

are u serious? the only privilege of SF is Spells immunity mantainable...and dmg reduction by 5 which in HM means nothing:

I do many chest runs in HM in Cantha with my sin and have to switch armors with different insignias for different areas. The afflicted boss in Dragon's Throat in HM strikes me for 150+ dmg and i got SF, Shroud of distress, IAU, -2stance shield + insignias vs blunt dmg..

As for all the SC i do: you are not immune, you just have to use strategy to stay alive and sometimes it's not even enough.

SF was almost invincible (except for touch skills, traps AoE spells and stuff like explosive arrows -.-)

Prince Rogrs Nelson · Jan 21, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriel of Ravn

Those prices fell before the HoM calculator even came out. Yes they decreased a while after the "nerf" but not anywhere near the time frame you claim.

Some did, yes. But they all fell MORE after the HoM calculator. No lie - I had a req9 DF bds. Got it a few days before HoM calculator. The night I got it, it was worth about 140e (I turned down 120e twice that night). The day after the calculator came out, I was getting laughed at when I asked 90e for it. I eventually made do with the equivalent of about 65e.

The HoM calculator, pretty much on its own, caused that sucker to drop in price by 40%. Shadow form had jack to do with it.

myopic · Jan 21, 2011, 09:45 PM // 21:45

I'm still really upset my 600 got nerfed to all hell, but SF is still very viable.

I say signed and double signed.

chessyang · Jan 21, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saru The Boss

How many of these threads have we seen? Does this really need to be up for discussion AGAIN?

ahahhh one a month. Also one after a skill updae. but after a while you just read them for kicks and giggles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/D_Manly_UW_Farmer

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/Me_Hund...ades_UW_Farmer

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/any_Enduring_UW_Farmer

Cool thanks for the builds. forgotten how fun it was to run this!

Life Bringing · Jan 21, 2011, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I guess you have no idea what you are talking about. Warriors are NOT the foundation of FOW clears, never was, never is, and never will be. The main tank is always a SF sin, T1 and T2 are also sins. Only the damage dealers are 100b warriors combined with synergy from Mop necro and EoE R/Rt. That's the classic FOWsc run by most pugs these days. Even the warriors can be replaced by A/W as damage dealers.

Speed clear guilds have already transitioned to better ways of doing damage in FOWsc. These new team builds (not run by pugs) usually consists of mesmers as the primary souce of damage. It is a mesmer spike and not a 100b spike, so there are ZERO warriors in the team. In fact, this FOWsc completion style is similar to UBway (which is used to complete UWSC). In this newer FOWsc, there are 3 primary sins: T1, T2 and T3. This shows that newer build are abusing the SF elite even moreso, and the new completion times without personal cons are easily under 20min, which is a significant improvement over manly FOWsc.

The bottom line is that SF is the CORE ELITE for tanking purposes and no profession does it better than sins, thanks to "Shroud of Distress". Rangers/Monks/Eles can also function as main tanks using conset and personal cons, but hardly anbody uses them, and even if they do, SF is STILL the damn elite being used.

As far as damage is concerned, mes spike is possibly the fastest there is at the moment. The best speed clear records are mesmer-damage based, whether it is FOW, UW, Urgoz, etc. Why? Because armor ignoring damage on a balled group (by a SF tank) is the most efficient tactic there is in this stupid game.

Manly way in fow is still superior to a mesmer spike. The current FoW record, however, is DwG. Id also like to point out that a t3 is nothing new, in fact a t4 has been around for well over a year. If youre running a t3 and you use 20 as the benchmark, youre terrible. UW record doesnt use any mesmers, and the fact that you bring up the godawful UBway is kind of sad.

No profession being able to beat sins at tanking is debatable. The main thing that sins have going for them is the lack of the need for pcons to maintain sf with just a celerity. Were this not the case, r/a would be the superior option because of the vastly higher damage available through WD(a few roles in uw and fow are much faster with the use of a ranger over an assassin) and w/a would be superior due to better damage reduction skills.

Anyways, it is far too late in the game to nerf shadow form. There has been years of every player in the game becoming used to clearing elite areas in relatively quick times. Even if sf was nerfed, the supply of high end items is so high that there would be no incentive to spend the time for the extremely small profit gained at the end of the run for months to come

gremlin · Jan 21, 2011, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Irrelevant.

Partially relevant. The metagame dictates how willing people are to accept a diverse party

Wrong. You are playing a game formed with a non official socialized construction of tendencies, patterns, and rules.

A player who wants to go as a Dervish in a SC run is out of luck because the typical norm of GW's metagame does not involve Dervishes. Due to these non official social rules that are invented to increase efficiency, speed, and ease of SC runs, other players are being excluded.

I believe this is due cause for nerfing Shadow Form as it contributes to the exclusion of many players and professions and because it reduces the game into a single tactic of speed clearing high end areas for profiteering.

If GW1 is not a multiplayer game, how are there multiple players playing within the same game environment interacting with eachother?

You contradicted yourself.

You should look up the definition of multiplayer.

I mentioned pvp because it is part of the game and part of the reason the game is how it is today.
I doubt we would have seen 10% of the skill changes we have were it not for changes needed to keep pvp from stagnating.

Pugs when I say I object to players telling me how to run my character I mean pugs for general play not players looking for custom parties to achieve particular objectives in difficult areas.

I can find pugs wanting to dictate builds in the start areas of the games.
The wiki has a lot to answer for as players who have a couple of weeks play under their belt try to decide that my build should be altered even though I have 4 years play and know what I am doing and all based on what the wiki tells them is a great build.

Playing my game
When I join a party I am happy to discuss where we are going and what they want to achieve and I am happy to take particular skills or abuilds if they are more experienced than I or can give me a good reason.
You seem to assume the situation is they party is experienced and know what they want and the prospective player is dumb.
This is not always the case.

Multiplayer game ok you got me I did contradict myself.
I was using multiplayer game in the sense of playing through the storyline and completing it or playing against other players in pvp.
In that sense the game is a little lacking as so many players are going after their own objectives and the don't want fun they want success and speed and this brings us back to the invincibuilds because this is precisely what they were created for.

They describe Guild wars as a multiplayer online role playing game.
Well it is certainly online and it is multiplayer but not as much as it once was but it certainly isn't a role playing game maybe GW2 will be.

mage767 · Jan 21, 2011, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Manly way in fow is still superior to a mesmer spike. The current FoW record, however, is DwG. Id also like to point out that a t3 is nothing new, in fact a t4 has been around for well over a year. If youre running a t3 and you use 20 as the benchmark, youre terrible. UW record doesnt use any mesmers, and the fact that you bring up the godawful UBway is kind of sad.

There is so much non-sense in this paragraph I had to highlight all of it. I am pretty sure most others will agree. I never said Ubway was the fastest. And I would like to see how manlyway FOWsc can achieve times way under 20 min all the time. Looking forward to your evidence.

NerfHerder · Jan 21, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

are u serious? the only privilege of SF is Spells immunity mantainable...and dmg reduction by 5 which in HM means nothing

I would hardly call that nothing. SF + SoD= 10 armor reduction, 15-20 after recast. Let's be honest, you almost never see a SF build w/o SoD. With the correct shield and enchantment runes, the assassin gets 98 AR and a 15-20 damage reduction. Then add +8 regen and 75% block at 50% hp. Forget the immunity to spells, name two Warrior or Dervish skills that can do that and are easily maintained with out the need to even strike anyone.

The Blasts · Jan 21, 2011, 11:24 PM // 23:24

I've just made a 55 monk, I can guarantee no matter what there are still ways you can die easy (Mesmers, necromancers, ritualists, alot more.), so it's not really overpowered or exploitable as most areas have at least 10 of each I think, plus I mean it takes effort to get the combos right and making sure the skills are reset right too so it's not really exploiting as you take alot of effort into it.

Life Bringing · Jan 21, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

There is so much non-sense in this paragraph I had to highlight all of it. I am pretty sure most others will agree. I never said Ubway was the fastest. And I would like to see how manlyway FOWsc can achieve times way under 20 min all the time. Looking forward to your evidence.

Wheres the nonsense? Because im not seeing it. Everything i said there was fact. This is a 15 from months ago(after the sf nerf) with no t3, no split to forest, etc. This is a 10 with a t4. Manly is consistently ~16 so long as your team isnt terrible. With a t3 it should easily be 15 or less. This is the current fow record, with dwg

Xiaquin · Jan 22, 2011, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

I love invinci builds because it makes GW truly soloable.

Not true, or every profession would, with its own skill set, have success at doing such a thing.

As far back as I've ever seen, this is a team game and content was designed for the party size an area allows. This is why we get a warning when we try to enter a mission with a small party.

"Invicibuilds" are exceptions, not the rule, and therefore unbalanced. I want to say the problem is simply resources, but as far back as I can remember, 55s destroyed supposed 8-person elite content.

If I ever get to ask the team one question, this subject is certainly the one I'd love to know "behind the scenes", what they were thinking.

mage767 · Jan 22, 2011, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Wheres the nonsense? Because im not seeing it. Everything i said there was fact. This is a 15 from months ago(after the sf nerf) with no t3, no split to forest, etc. This is a 10 with a t4. Manly is consistently ~16 so long as your team isnt terrible. With a t3 it should easily be 15 or less. This is the current fow record, with dwg

For the love of God or whatever that you worship or not, please don't call something DwG if the majority of damage dealers (players) are SF sins. It should be termed Sinway/Splitway as more appropriate.

I am still waiting to see the "consistent" 16-min manly FOWsc you spoke of. This is using 3 total SF sins (main, T1 and T2), 2 100b wars, etc.

Life Bringing · Jan 22, 2011, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

For the love of God or whatever that you worship or not, please don't call something DwG if the majority of damage dealers (players) are SF sins. It should be termed Sinway/Splitway as more appropriate.

I am still waiting to see the "consistent" 16-min manly FOWsc you spoke of. This is using 3 total SF sins (main, T1 and T2), 2 100b wars, etc.

That might work, but then it wouldnt be possible to figure out what holds the record. Its painfully obvious that the record bars are going to be largely composed of sins. Because of this, the team is classified in terms of its spikers(manly, dwg, mesmerspike, etc).

If you would kindly supply a method of showing it to you, i'd be glad to do so, but off the top of my head i cant really think of any way to show you consistent runs over a period. However, you cant deny that i have shown that times below that are achievable with a standard setup.

This thread is getting really offtopic.